The UpTic

Breaking Barriers: A Rhodes Scholar’s Journey with Tourette Syndrome

• New Jersey Center for Tourette Syndrome and Associated Disorders • Season 2 • Episode 30

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What does it take to overcome barriers and achieve your dreams? In this episode of The Uptick, I sit down with Jenna Smith, a senior at Duke University and a newly awarded Rhodes Scholar, to talk about her journey navigating Tourette Syndrome while excelling academically and pursuing a career in law and criminal justice. From her early struggles with tics in the classroom to standing on some of the world’s biggest academic stages, Jenna shares how she built confidence, found community, and learned to embrace her unique path.

Jenna Smith is a senior at Duke University originally from Scotch Plains, New Jersey. She will be graduating this May with a major in International Comparative Studies and a minor in journalism and media. Jenna was among the 32 recipients selected for the Rhodes Scholarship, where she will be going to the University of Oxford in the UK for 2 years of study

 

Episode Highlights:

[2:38] The moment Jenna found out she was awarded the Rhodes Scholarship.
[4:59] How a documentary project in Mississippi shaped her passion for criminal justice.
[7:06] Her dream of using restorative justice to create meaningful change.
[9:23] Struggling with math, tic attacks during exams, and the pressure of academic performance.
[13:47] The challenge of navigating Tourette’s in middle school and how self-awareness helped.
[17:44] Learning to self-advocate—why early diagnosis and accommodations made a difference.
[23:04] How humor and openness helped Jenna shape how others respond to her tics.
[28:01] Growing up with a sibling who also has Tourette’s—lessons in support and resilience.
[32:30] Taking on challenges: How Brazilian Jiu Jitsu became a confidence-building hobby.
[37:05] Building confidence from within—why competence, community, and self-trust matter.

 

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Remember, each story shared on this podcast brings light and understanding to the diverse experiences within the Tourette's community. Your journey is your own, and it's filled with potential and promise. If this episode resonated with you, I encourage you to like, share, and leave a review to help us connect with more listeners.

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Jenna Smith:

And I think my tics do still correspond with major stressors in my life. That's something that had entirely gone away. But I think once I was able to like one, put in certain practices that people always talk about, like yoga and meditation as like a grounding practice for myself. But I think on a larger level, once I grew in terms of my confidence, both communicating about my tics to others to let them know what was going on with me, and also understood that what was happening in this one moment wasn't the end all be all. I was able to detach a little bit and perform my best because my worth wasn't equated with what was being put in front

Michael Leopold:

of me. Welcome to the uptick brought to you by The New Jersey Center for Tourette syndrome and associated disorders, empowering children and adults through education, advocacy and research, by sharing the stories and experiences relevant to the TS community. Hello and welcome back to the uptick. Today, I am speaking with Jenna Smith, a senior at Duke University, originally from Scotch Plains, New Jersey. Jenna will be graduating this May with a major in international comparative studies and a minor in journalism and media. She was recently among the 32 recipients selected for the Rhodes Scholarship, where she will be going to the University of Oxford in the UK next year for an all expenses paid two years of study. Jenna, it's great having you on the uptick, and I want to first just congratulate you on getting the Rhodes Scholarship. It's a tremendous achievement and opportunity for our listeners who aren't as familiar with it, she had to be nominated by the university, and then you were chosen from among 865 applicants from across the country, and then more from around the world. Can you walk us through that, that moment you found out you got the scholarship, and what your reaction was, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And

Jenna Smith:

thanks for the congratulations. I really appreciate it. A very exciting couple months. I remember getting the way that they announce it is really interesting, because they have us, like, all in a room, and then they sort of tell us together, like, Who among us got the scholarship? So they like, bring us in the person announces it. And I think my fate, like, I think all the blood left my body. I was just, like, fun. It was so insane. And I gave like, hugs to all the, like, the amazing finalists I met that weekend. I met some, like, really, really cool people. And then once everybody trickled out, I like, panicked, and I called my mother and my father, and my dad starts doing laps around the house, and my mom's crying. I was gonna

Michael Leopold:

work off that energy somehow. It's like getting into, you know, getting into college or Duke or something, all over again, that that excitement of, just like you made a great, you know, great milestone here, and I'm gonna do great things with that. So my understanding is, you get to go to Oxford now and take some courses. I mean, your area of study. Do you know what, what those courses will be, or what your program will be in.

Jenna Smith:

Yes, I'm in the process of applying right now. So the plan is Oxford in the fall. So I'm interested in criminology and criminal justice or public policy, or like my two main focuses. So those are the specific courses I'm looking at. But I'm pretty open. I think just the long term goal is law school and then doing work in the criminal legal landscape. So any substantive education that helps me get to that goal, is, it's really the plan.

Michael Leopold:

Love that. It sounds like you've always been on that lawyer track. Is that, is that the case

Jenna Smith:

kind of, yeah, I don't know if you can tell from, like, I just was a very, very nerdy kid, so I just spent my entire, I want to say, middle school, like, really into reading Howard Zinn books, like a people sister the Supreme Court. I had a very weird, very intense relationship with I love. So I remember at the time, like, I think sort of learning about these mechanisms that had really been used to disadvantage my communities, but I also had this immense faith in using them to create change. And, like, that's a whole other conversation, another podcast about, like, how that faith and belief in our current institutions has evolved. But at the time, that was something that was really was really, really grounded in. So I think after that, like, I focused on learning more about those things through high school, doing mock trial and Ethics Bowl and things like that. I had a really amazing legally and ethics focused programming in my high school education. And when I got to Duke, I really dove into the focus on the criminal legal work. So I got to get involved with this amazing organization called restorative justice Durham here where Duke University is based. When I got involved with this, another amazing organization called the Duke Justice Project, and through a lot of really amazing connections and community members who welcomed me into the re entry landscape around here and doing that kind of work, I just learned more and more about it, and here we are looking at our next educational journey. I look

Michael Leopold:

at that. No, I loved another journey and another, another opportunity here. And I understand from our last talk that you some of your interest in this was sparked by some documentary, video journalism you did in the Deep South. Do you want to speak to that? Some?

Jenna Smith:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I part of the, well, what the reason why I ended up at Duke University is I was really privileged. I got this scholarship called the Robertson. So the Robertson is a scholarship that funds, honestly, a similar number of kids as the roads like around, like 30 to 35 kids per year. Half of them go to Duke and half of them go to UNC Chapel Hill. And as part of that programming, like the founder of the Robertson is really rooted in the American South. So the summer after your freshman year, you get sent to a different community in the south. So it can be harbor and North Carolina. We have some folks in Kentucky, some folks in Mississippi, and you're doing a lot of like service oriented work. And while like service has always been something that's been very grounded in me and my family, like I when they told me I was going to Mississippi, I think I started kicking and screaming. Kicking and screaming, like I was, like, I'm not going. I'm not going because of all this history that I had known about and grown up pretty seeped in of the American South. My family migrated and really, like, hadn't looked back since. So it was something that I just wasn't super excited about. And then I moved there and absolutely fell in love with it, to be quite honest, the community, the culture, and how dedicated people are to the history and the land. And I was privileged enough to work on this documentary project where I got to interview, I think it was like between nine to 10 really incredible women who were change makers and the descendants of folks who were working in the civil rights era. So I got to talk to Miss Reena Evers, Everett, who's the daughter of Medgar and Myrlie Evers, who have an incredible history and like seeing the civil rights movement just I had the most amazing privilege summer. And from there, I realized the work that I was really focused on in the criminal legal sphere, it was best rooted in these sorts of like, tight knit communities, and that's where the most progress can be made, but that's also not where resources are typically allocated. So I think that's sort of become the focus of what I want my career to look like, is doing that kind of work in those communities.

Michael Leopold:

I was gonna say those my next My next question was, it sounds like your plan was or is to return to like Mississippi south or and do some of that restorative justice work in those communities after law school and all of that, of course, but that is that still, that's still kind of your thinking, Yeah, that's the

Jenna Smith:

dream. That's the dream. That's wonderful law school, and see what that looks like. But that would be the ideal,

Michael Leopold:

excellent. And then in terms of law school, I know this a couple years away, but would your specialty be in, like, restorative justice? I don't know all the different concentrations there are for law school. But are you able to kind of get into that, that area you're interested in?

Jenna Smith:

Yeah, I think it depends on where you go to law school, and it depends on, like, what programs school is really prominent in. As a kid, I was really interested in constitutional law, and now I've had this more restorative justice focus, so I think we'll see what it ends up looking

Michael Leopold:

like. Oh, looking forward to it. And, yeah, we'll stay tuned on that. So in the meantime, though, you also, you also have tics, and you have Tourette and anxiety and all the other things that make you you, you know, I think so many kids hearing this podcast, you know, you have such an impressive background. You talk about, like, being service oriented for your life. Talk about being nerdy, being a high achiever and and I love all that. I think we need more great role models of, like, just people with Tourette going on to do lots of things, including being excelling academically, about like, that kid that's, you know, sitting just struggling to get through algebra one and like, middle school or, like, I remember, for me, math was always really a challenge. And my dad, like, God love him. He was an engineer, and so he was able to sit down with me if I had questions on my homework or whatever he would. He was so patient. And I even when I was not, and I'd be, you know, just getting all worked up because it didn't make sense to me. And he worked with me for hours at night on my homework, as to make sure I understood the concepts that I was learning and developing. And I'm so blessed that I had him. What would you have to say to someone like that? You know that I that is struggling academically, and we can go in a few different directions with this, because I know this is a really broad question, but I want to hear some initial thoughts you have on that. Yeah.

Jenna Smith:

I mean, that's something I definitely relate to, even down to like, sitting with dad at, like the kitchen table, those math problems, it's interesting. I was doing some reflecting on this this morning, because that's honestly the root of, sort of, first of all, how I learned about my tics and how prominent they were and were going to be in my life. And sort of taught me a lot about how I was going to approach my academics. Because when I was in eighth grade and studying I get, I guess that's algebra one. I can't even remember what

Michael Leopold:

class that is around there yet. Rowan, I just, I was really struggling

Jenna Smith:

with math, and it's still not my forte to this day, like, that's, don't put a brush in front of me. But I, I remember, like, I was really, really struggling to the point where I would get, like, these really intense tic attacks when I was doing my homework and I could through high school, I remember I had a tic attack during my AP calculus exam my senior year. So it's not something that completely ever evaporated from my life, but it's something that I don't know in terms of, like, what I would have known at that time, or what I wish I would have known. I'd say first, at least what I needed, personally was just to know, to not put. Much to try to take a little bit of pressure off of myself, which feels impossible in the moment when you have all these big goals and these big dreams and you feel like this one thing is the thing that's standing in the way. But I think I was at a point where I was really equating my worth with how I was performing on these exams, how I was doing in school, and I think that really manifested, and how frequently I was taking and how prominent my tics were, because I was just so sort of bottled up and nervous and terrified that it just sort of manifested in this way. And I think my tics do still correspond with major stressors in my life. That's something that hasn't entirely gone away. But I think once I was able to like one, put in certain practices that people always talk about, like yoga and meditation as like a grounding practice for myself, but I think on a larger level, once I grew in terms of my confidence, both communicating about my tics to others, to let them know what was going on with me, and also understood that what was happening in this one moment wasn't the end all be all, I was able to detach a little bit and perform my best, because my worth wasn't equated with what was being put in front of me. You

Michael Leopold:

bring up some interesting points there. I what I'm thinking of is that, like being a student in school, especially like a young like a like a kid, is such a unique place in life to be, because all your self worth, like it really does feel like it's all about getting, getting the grades. You You spend all of your your waking day, you know, I went to like a traditional learning environment and classroom. I assume you did too. So it was just a lot of sitting at the desk, being quiet, looking straight ahead, listening to the teacher. You go home, you do your homework. Yeah, you got some sports, extracurriculars and whatnot. But so much of your life and your worth is really just revolving around getting good grades and getting doing well academically and and it's almost like, so if that's something that is, that is a struggle, or just, you know, you've got challenges, there barriers there, it really can eat in our self esteem just because it's that, it's not like you've got a job or some other thing that you're possibly getting some of that value and worth from and I realized there's ways to build that in a kid's life, but, you know, with hobbies and stuff. But I but yeah, I mean, so much of our as just being a kid, so much of your life revolves around school. And I think that's something that kids should be. I remember my parents always says that they would always say, like, Michael, the real world isn't school. Like you're gonna have a job, and hopefully you're going to, like your job, and you're going to come home and you're not going to have homework. It's just going to be like, you're done for the day. You can, like, work on family, whatever stuff you have going on, home, recreation, hobbies and and like, there aren't going to be exams anymore, there's not going to be a standardized test. And that just that concept just felt so foreign to me, like when I was in eighth grade, and like, eighth year was also a super stressful year for me, and probably the worst my tics have ever been. But yeah, no, as an adult now, I'm 31 and I definitely I feel that it's like, wow, if anything now those days that I just spent my whole time being in school seems so distant and foreign and like, I can't even relate to that anymore, because I'm now so used to just being an adult, but yeah, your worldview will certainly change. Like, to any kids listening to this, or parents that are looking for things to tell their kid that are stressing about this, it is hard being a kid and being in class all the time and and I don't think we always acknowledge, like, why it's that? Why? Why it is so hard. It's that is kind of your life is being in school,

Jenna Smith:

100% I very much so agree with that. It's interesting. You talk about your tics being most prominent in eighth grade. I think it was very similar for me. And when I think back on that time, like even more so than equating your self worth with like, what specific grade you're getting, you're also it's a time in your life where so much of your self worth is determined by what other people think of

Michael Leopold:

your peers and classmates. Yeah, sitting in the

Jenna Smith:

back the classroom, I just remember this so vividly of being so hyper aware of what the kids next me thought of me, and I'm having this tick. I used to have this tick where I'd like kick the chair in front of me stick to have in middle school so bad. So it's one of those things where you're like, you get so hyper aware of how people perceive you that that only increases the stress and increases the nerves. And that's something that is really difficult to navigate and to avoid, but it is something that as you move through life and as the world, because it does get bigger, like you're saying, and it does get larger than that one environment, it is something that feels a little bit easier to manage as you continue to move through

Michael Leopold:

it. When did your tics first emerge? So I started experiencing

Jenna Smith:

tics in fourth grade, and I got diagnosed in eighth grade. So it was, like, very long process because my tics were really prominent. It was actually it became one of those things where my mother and I were, like, constantly in and out of different doctor's offices. I remember, I think maybe around fifth grade, I had like, this neck tick where I'd like, whip my head back really quickly. Yeah, yeah, that one

Michael Leopold:

I've had, yeah, I've been there. Those are painful. They

Jenna Smith:

are they're really annoying. I went to the doctor, I remember, and they like, gave me a neck brace. I was just walking around a neck brace the whole time. And then I had, like, an arm. Those are also really uncomfortable

Michael Leopold:

neck braces. Yes, I got a concussion when I was two years old, and the old. Thing I like, remember about it to the extent a two year old can remember anything, is how painful that neck raise was. It was awful. I was like, don't make me wear this anyway. Sorry. I was like, choking, but, Chrissy, I didn't mean to interrupt with that, but neck raises suck, please. Everybody, take care of your bodies. Don't get hurt because you don't want to be in a neck RAC, they're awful. Yeah,

Jenna Smith:

we really really don't, oh my gosh, they're so uncomfortable. It's like, it's one of those things where I think, and I've heard that it is more difficult to diagnose Ts in girls. That's something that like, because, you know, a topic of conversation. So I think that might have contributed to it, because, like, we went to all these different doctors, and we were never really able to get a solid answer until going to a neurologist, like, four years later. So seeing all over the years was, you know, you

Michael Leopold:

know, it's true. I and I hope this is something we get better at with, like diagnosing Ts and ADHD and girls and across different communities. Because, yeah, I mean so much of the research on it, and like presentations that doctors were trained on is like little white boys. And ironically, though, even I, like as a little Playboy, I still had, I think I was ultimately diagnosed by a neurologist. We did the whole like, pediatrician to ear, nose and throat doctor to some specialist at the Children's Hospital in Chicago, to whatever. And then eventually it was a, it was a neurologist that diagnosed me. I find that they, you know, just in my experience, they were that was kind of where the buck stopped. It was like, All right, you have Tourette, and then around just said, let's watch your symptoms for a year, and, you know, make sure they wax and wane, yada yada. And then I got the diagnosis. But it's tough, and I think getting that, getting an early diagnosis is important, and getting the right diagnosis is important, especially with CO occurring conditions and stuff where, you know, people could have different things, and we don't always know what what it is that's going on, but like that, early intervention is key. So, so eighth grade, you got the diagnosis and anything that came along with that. Did you like, speak to your classmates about it, work with teachers for course adjustment? Were there any, any kind of, like, life changes you made at that point?

Jenna Smith:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, honestly, probably the biggest life change was more psychological, because I think prior to my diagnosis, I felt I was just like, What is this thing about me that I can't explain to other people? It's weird that I can't control it became this, like big thing in my head, because I felt so isolated. But once I had larger language to ascribe to it, it was honestly a lot easier. I didn't feel like this, this outsider anymore. I was like, there's a community of people. A large number of people were experiencing the same thing. So I do think it was really beneficial with that respect. And then, of course, they're like, the practical things like I started working regarding getting accommodations, sometimes taking tests in a separate room, like different things like that that were really just helpful for my tics navigating my own anxiety surrounding it. And can I ask

Michael Leopold:

a question about testing accommodations? My thought is, I saw I did this a little bit in like middle school, or actually some in high school too, would like go to a separate room for testing, and it was tough because I knew I needed the accommodation and my tics were bad and stuff, but it was so embarrassing like to just leave my classmates and then have to, it forced a disclosure a lot of times, because my friends were like, Hey, why? Where's Mike? How come he's not in the classroom? Like, where did he go? And now I have to disclose. And I wasn't, you know, I'm like, an eighth grade kid just trying to fit in. And I was not always trying to be like, Mr. Michael the Tourette advocate. Like, let's, let's, let's teach the world about Tourette. Sometimes I just wanted to be a kid. How did you navigate that? Was that a challenge for you in terms of, like, going to a separate room, or maybe not? I am just so curious to hear what your your experience with that was like?

Jenna Smith:

That's a really interesting point that you bring up. Because honestly, I don't think that part was as difficult for me, because I think I went to a school where that was pretty normalized. Like, it wasn't uncommon for people to have accommodations and go to another room. It didn't really feel so kind of but I do think the aspect of, like, forcing a disclosure in respect can be very, very difficult, because I remember, especially when I was first diagnosed, even though it brought like, that whole like psychological relief, like I mentioned earlier, it I definitely was, like, so insecure and nervous about talking to other people about what I was experiencing. And I noticed that, and this is like, a privilege and a result of the environment that I was in. But I felt like once I explained it to people, life got a lot easier. And like, getting, like, the weird books anymore, it was like, oh, Jenna has Ts in the like that. We move on with the day. But I think at the time, I was so in my head about it and like, further, I didn't want to make myself, like, even further. This, like, strange thing, you know, I felt so insecure about it that I think any environments that felt like they forced me to talk to people about it before I felt fully ready to were pretty difficult.

Michael Leopold:

Those are tough environments. No, I agree with that, you know. And one point you made I want to highlight, because I relate to it too, is that, like when people know what it is that tends to make things easier, and not always. Some people are just jerks, but I find that like people tend to ask questions or whisper or gossip or even bully when we don't know what's going on. Like, when you don't have an answer, because it's weird if you, like, see someone doing something and like, you don't know what it is, like, you just don't know what it is and, and I think just having the label Tourette, it kind of answers the question, oh, that's what it is that person has Tourette, and that alone just gets it kind of cuts through the like, ambiguity of what is, what is this mysterious gesture this person's doing and thing that they're saying with their voice, it now you have an answer. So if you're still going to judge them and be rude to them, now you're you're just not a nice person. But a lot of people will be like, Oh, okay, they have Tourette. Like, that's all. That's like, something changes in your brain, and then it like, makes sense. So I think there's a lot of benefit, yeah, in disclosure and but of course, it needs to be in an environment where you feel you can you can feel psychologically safe to do that, you feel empowered to do that, not feel like it's being focused on you. An important thing here is building community around yourself, building friends who are supportive and understand what you're going through, to the extent that they can, but that they're supportive and they're there for you. I'm curious to hear how, how you handled this, telling the people around you, disclosing and how you told people to react to your tics.

Jenna Smith:

Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that took a bit of time to develop and figure out what I was comfortable with and and, you know, it was an interesting process. I remember, I think that was, was like, most heightened in my family, because I think I would most like, my ticks would be most prominent around the home and my parent, we don't know anybody, consciously, anyone else in our family who has Tourette, so that's not something that they were very aware of how to navigate before I was diagnosed and before I had it. It was kind of interesting, because they'd all they'd like approach it very, was very, very different ways. I remember my dad specifically could not quite figure it out where, like, I used to have this thing where I would I'd like, tick on the car ride to the school, and my dad would like, reach over, and he'd like, hold my hand. Like, it's okay, babe, we're gonna get through it. Start stroking up probably 14. I'm gonna listen to 21 pilots. Whatever I was doing

Michael Leopold:

at the time. I was like, Dad, stop. Just let me live my life. Dad, let me pick exactly

Jenna Smith:

those injuries. Interesting. And people like people to react to their tics in different ways. I think for me, and the way that I've communicated it to my family and my friends is just like, it's normal. It's just part of conversation. You don't necessarily need to respond to it every time. But also, and this is against a very personal choice, but I think for me, like, some of my tics are funny. I think like, I have, like, right now where, like, I'll be sitting around with my roommates, and then I'll just, like, tap one of them on the shoulder and go, you're a lesbian, and, like, every once a while you can laugh at that. It's fine. We can laugh. Okay. Um, so I think also just making folks know that, like, I'm comfortable, and like, I don't expect anyone to be rude, but you don't have to, like, overly police your reactions. And I think that can also make things more uncomfortable if I'm being most straightforward about it. So I think just letting people know I don't know, it's one of those things that folks don't know how to navigate, and sometimes they're nervous to start a conversation ride. So I think once I figured out that I could extend the olive branch, and I could start the conversation like it's okay and talk through it. I think that was really helpful. That

Michael Leopold:

was a huge revelation for me too. Was like that I could be the one, and probably I should be the one to extend that olive branch and be like, hey, like, you can laugh at my tics if they're funny, or we can, like, make jokes about this, because you guys are my friends, and I know you get it. And, like, because I think, yeah, growing up, I had a complicated and evolving relationship with my tics. I guess I still do. It's we're going through life, and it we evolved, but, but I definitely had periods where it was just kind of like, I would tell people the bare minimum, I would disclose and then I was actually okay, like talking about it. If you asked me a question, but I didn't volunteer it. I wasn't going to bring out my tics, even if I had a bad tic day, I'm not going to be like, Oh man, I'm my next I think my tics are bad. I just wouldn't it just wasn't really something I thought about. Tics were just kind of something I did and just a part of me. But I think my friends and circle especially, I noticed this some in college too, because it changed by the end of college, but earlier on, I just noticed people, even my friends, who knew I had ticks, they didn't talk about it. They just kind of matched and mirrored what I did. So if I didn't bring it up, they didn't bring it up, and I'd be having a really bad tick day. And like, they just didn't acknowledge it. And I guess I kind of liked it, that's kind of how I set it up. But I realized over like, over time that, like, I could have had a more natural, like, kind of genuine, authentic dynamic around my tics. Like, I could have created an environment where my friend said, Hey, your tics are, like, pretty bad today, you you know, just checking in, you know, and like, by senior year, we had that dynamic, because I did start talking about it more. But I think what I learned was that it's really in our power to kind of shape that environment, or at least do our best to if you know, here I was in like, middle school and high school, thinking, Oh, if I just tell my closest circle of friends that I have Tourette, that's all I need to do. Then word will get out and I'll never have to disclose again, just whatever. And no, like it was, it didn't work out that way. I told my closest group of friends, and because it's a confidential topic, it's sensitive, it's a medical condition that. They didn't want to talk to anyone about it. They didn't want to spread the word. So, you know, if someone was like, Hey, why is Michael doing that thing with his face? Like my friends would just probably say nothing anyway. Long story short, I learned that as a person with Tourette, I had a lot more control over the narrative and just control over the environment that I realized I did, and I think owning that helped me feel a lot more empowered, as opposed to, like, being in middle school high school, where I just felt like I was kind of getting through the day to day, and not really, like, owning my turret in a way. I was just kind of like, Oh, I hope they don't notice me tick, whereas now it's kind of like, so what if they notice Yeah,

Jenna Smith:

I've seen that evolution show up in my life as well. And it's interesting, because I feel like it even goes beyond like the friends and family conversation, like it's something that I think about. I think about now when I start, like, internships or jobs. I had never really thought about, and maybe I should have, I definitely should have, but I hadn't really thought about how that would manifest in the workplace. And I remember I, like, started an internship recently, and I just decided, and again, it's a personal choice, but I let my boss know. I think, on like, the first day, I had is, like, just, so, you know, I have Tourette's, this is what it can look like. And just because I felt like it would make me feel more relaxed and feel more uncomfortable, if I just let them know ahead of time, as opposed to, like, I wait till I have a significant take and then I'm like, Oh, by the way. So I thought, I don't know. I thought that was, like, a nice conversation start as well, because then they're giving the opportunity to ask me questions of like, how should I respond, and how I think it's one of those things that, like, it starts a dialog, and it makes you feel more comfortable. Sometimes, if you and

Michael Leopold:

that's huge, just make you know we disclose as much for the other person as we disclose for ourselves. Like it helps us too when we disclose. Like, creating that kind of environment, internships and jobs is such a I'm glad you brought that up, because that's been, I don't know, just something I'm still reflecting on, because, I mean, so much of it depends on your team and the nature of your work. But I have varied from disclosing, like on the first day to also, I've had jobs where I disclose like, a month into the job, depending on the person in the team, and yeah, I always felt better afterwards. And I also felt a sort of sense of, like, deeper camaraderie with my colleagues after I, like, disclosed, because it is sharing something that's kind of vulnerable. It's a deeper topic about ourself that we share. So I actually was always grateful when I did it, but I think the timing of that is up to the person, and that could, that could be kind of tricky to navigate, because I also didn't want to be like, Hi, it's day one. I'm the new guy. I have Tourette's like, I don't know, at least get to know me a little bit more or something else, and then I'll drop the T bomb after that. But like, yeah, so. But then if I'm like, nervous because I'm taking on the first day now, it's like, no, I should disclose. So a lot of things can impact this, but I just want to underscore the point that, yeah, disclosure really can help you a lot and just make you feel more comfortable too, with your boss or colleagues and peers.

Jenna Smith:

100% Absolutely, absolutely. So

Michael Leopold:

you are not the only one in your family with tics. I'm so curious to hear what that dynamic is like. Ts in the family. Do you trigger each other? Do you support each other? Do you both do, what is that like?

Jenna Smith:

Yeah, yeah. My little sister, Reina, also has Tourette, and it's really interesting, because her tics developed, like, quite a bit after mine. Like, I want to say I was like, in late high school before she started experiencing tics. And honestly, I think the first reaction, I think my parents were wondering if she was just mimicking me. I can think that was just the automatic the automatic assumption, and then, like, they noticed over time, like, No, it looks like Reina has CS too. And it's interesting. I feel like I've learned a lot from watching her honestly. Like, yeah, that little girl is my role model, I swear, um, because she is 17 years old, and she does a lot of, like, major public speaking events. She's a huge leader in her community, and I've seen her give these speeches in front of, like, hundreds, sometimes 1000s, of kids. And what's so empowering is that art direct, they sort of manifest differently. Where I'm at the point in my life, where unless I'm either, like, very, very stressed or very, very calm, you're probably not going to see it. So like, ask for a person might not know. But my sister's tics are a lot more prominent. And you'll see her and like, she's standing in front of this big stage of people and giving this powerful speech clearly, like very educated knows a lot about the topic, and she asked her at and she's ticking things negate each other. They don't contradict each other. They can just both exist. And she can be beautiful and powerful and have tics at the same time. Absolutely, yeah, it has been, like, honestly, an inspiration to me to watch her, like, take up these spaces and embody these spaces and be very successful and that not be a detractor.

Michael Leopold:

That's beautiful. That was so well put. Yeah, no, your sister's great. I was, I had the privilege of coaching her at the Tim Howard Academy, and we'll be back there this fall again as a coach. But, yeah, you know, it's always interesting hearing these, these cases of Tourettes in the family. So I have three siblings, and two of them also have a try diagnosis. But what was kind of interesting for us was we're, like, the perfect salad bar analogy, where, like, we each have very different presentations of it. We each got different co occurring conditions. Our ticks are all different. So, like, I'm very pure, like, pretty pure motor. Tics and some nadhd, or, like my siblings, they have more, like, the anxiety or OCD depression, like the other co occurring conditions, and then more minimal tics. But it's always interesting too, because, yeah, parents, you think once you get one kid with it, they're, like, ready for it, and, like, they know, but, but every case is different. And so then you get like, a younger sibling who has it, and it's they might not get diagnosed right away, or, yeah, you might not notice it because they expect it to be like Jenna's ticks. But it's not because Tourette is idiosyncratic. Yeah, it just makes it. It's an ongoing, you know, not challenge, but just an ongoing thing that families work on. I guess. Did you guys find anything with with each other, being sisters with with Tourette, that kind of helped you guys just be better as siblings, supporting each other, any kind of tips that you can offer to others that have siblings at FTS,

Jenna Smith:

I think in response to that question, I think in some ways, and I don't know if I don't really qualify this as advice, but just as a reflection on it, I think it has brought us closer together. And it can be one of those things where you get to see how different people can navigate and communicate about their threat in the world. Because I know that, like, my sister's a lot more extroverted than I am, and I like have I also embody spaces in like, where she has strength, sometimes I sort of can have room to grow and where I have strength, sometimes she has room to grow. So it's interesting also to see like, how we navigate the world and can like, give each other advice on like, this is how I'd like talk about my threats to this person if I'm going on a first date and the guy and I have a tit like this is how I you know, those types of things, those types of options that you might not automatically think to ask like, it automatically creates a safe space where you could have those conversations.

Michael Leopold:

It's also very empowering to see your sibling do things that maybe you didn't think you were going to do, or that like you wouldn't be as comfortable. To me, it's like, oh, well, like my sibling can do that. I can do that too. It just somehow makes it feel like, oh, it's that path is is tracked my family, we've done that. I can do it too. Like it's sort of, I don't know I found that just growing up with so I was the third of four of us kids, and having two older siblings was nice, because it kind of, I don't know, by the time I got along, I it almost felt like there were more options, kind of just available, because I got to see what they did that, you know, extracurriculars they joined, or classes they took, whatnot, paths that they went. And it kind of, I don't know, emboldened me. I think just seeing what those opportunities were, that they, you know that they could be so random question here, but I understand that you have a hobby, and it is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Would love to hear a little bit more about that, especially how you got into

Jenna Smith:

it. Oh my gosh. I feel like I'm not qualified to speak up Brazilian. I'm so novice and so not good at it. But I just started as like a little hobby. I think my sophomore year of college, where I think I would needed, like, a bit of an empowerment, like, freshman year was a little difficult, and I was like, I'm gonna try something that makes me feel strong and

Michael Leopold:

powerful, just for you. That's awesome. Yeah, it's definitely been an on and on. Did it work? Is it like, is it a good like, I mean, running martial arts, self defense, I imagine, is very empowering. I haven't done it, but, yeah,

Jenna Smith:

absolutely, it's one of those things. We're also, I don't know, I'm one of those people who I think for a long time I'd only pick things, or, like, really lean into things that I knew I was gonna shine at. Like, I was always in like, bait clubs and all that stuff, because I'm like, This is my thing. And if I was bad at something, I'm like, I'm not gonna touch it.

Michael Leopold:

Oh, I hate it. I don't wanna do it. Yeah. So I

Jenna Smith:

think these last few years have been, like, an intentional foray into, like, Okay, I may not be amazing at this thing, and we're going to try it anyway, and we're going to see how it goes. So I think it's been healthy, like, psychologically for that that's some

Michael Leopold:

amazing growth that you know, taking on those things that you weren't going to do, taking on the things that are challenging, that we might not thrive at or might not be amazing at. You mentioned about a couple times about service being very core to who you are as a person, and I think you implied that it kind of came like through your family and like the way you were raised, doing service, doing good work, and being an active member of your community. I would love to hear you elaborate on kind of what that means to you, and anything that you have to share on on how that got instilled in you. Yeah, I think it's just a response

Jenna Smith:

that I just have, like, such a caring, loving family that's been very rooted in service as, like a practice, like a non negotiable, since I was a kid. Like it came through, both of my parents are members of the Divine nine, so like, the Omega Psi Phi Fraternity and Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated. So I, like, grew up going to like their events, and seeing all these amazing things that they were doing in their individual communities, and all these programs they were starting. My dad is, I think, just starting a new nonprofit focused on, like, sort of, like a freedom school, education type model, like, I just, I grew up around people who are so focused on giving back to their community as a part of their spiritual practice, cultural practice, like, that's what they do, and it's just a part of life. And I think I also just personally, like I mindset that I try to reassert for myself is, I think part of the reason why we're all on Earth is just to make life a little bit easier for the people around us. So I think it's just one of those models that also influences the day to day decisions and how I try to show up for my roommates over there. Are for like, my family members, or for my friends, or just it's one of those things that I think is a really important grounding philosophy that I've been grateful to grow up around people who who very much so prioritize it. And it's also I grew up in a faith family that's very religious. My mom's Muslim, my dad's Christian. So obviously those faiths look different. I think it's also part of their belief system.

Michael Leopold:

There no it makes sense. And I think a takeaway I'd give to people is that, like, service can come in many forms, and I think doing the one that feels natural to you is a good place to start. I think we tend to take on our what our parents do. I mean, I remember, like, being a little kid. I was, I was like a grandma's boy. I would like, she lived a couple houses down, so I'd like, run across the corn fields of Indiana to get to her house and, like, hang out with her. But my grandparents were super religious. They were very Catholic. And I remember we'd go to, like, their there's, like, our CIA and like things that like to help people convert to Catholicism, or she ran, like, a soup kitchen and stuff for the community. And I remember that was just like, a very natural way to start getting involved in service. Was like doing work through the church. And then, you know, got a little bit older, and my family, we were a big scouting family, so we we did, like, Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, and lots of volunteering through that and service work. And it was kind of like, for me, it always just felt very natural. It was just kind of like, this has kind of always been a part of my life. You know, my mom, my parents, volunteered in the schools. It was just sort of a given that, like, you have your job as an adult, but you also have, like, your service to your community, your civic responsibility, or, you know, whatever else. But I think what was cool about the way my parents raised us was that, like, it was always very open ended on what that could look like, and it was kind of like, do something meaningful for you that that's still giving back, you know, whether that's through faith, whether that's through whatever your passion, Tourette, work, being, being a great example. I want to talk some about confidence building. You strike me as someone that is, that is well put together and confident and assertive, and we love all of that. How did your confidence develop? And I'm sure that this is something that you know. It's not like just you woke up with it one day, or it was like innate. Can you share a little bit about how you built confidence growing up, especially as a person with Tourette? Yeah,

Jenna Smith:

it's something I really, really struggled with for a long time, like I was very insecure, I think especially in the years when I had Tourette, when I was having tics and wasn't diagnosed even, like through high school. I think it's something that I've always really struggled with. And I think college has probably been the biggest, like, coming into confidence phase for me. And I think that's shown up in like, multiple different ways. I think some of it might just be the brain developing and, like,

Michael Leopold:

just so true that helps

Jenna Smith:

life experiences. And I like thinking about this a lot, like in this last year, I think a lot of my confidence coming from competence and feeling like I'm able to honor the words and commitments I make to myself, and I show up for myself, and I care and prioritize myself. And I think all those things can be very strong confidence builders. So whether that's like journaling, whether that's I think some of it can also take place in like these sort of side passion projects that I do, like I was able to create this, like leadership program that I had been like, dreaming about doing for a long time, and I finally was like, think maybe my sophomore junior year of college was like, I'm it's going to happen. I'm doing it this year, and we were able to make it happen. And I think seeing something that starts in your brain and can manifest into something really impactful in your life that definitely brings a lot of confidence. Because I think, I mean, like, since the intro to this was talking about the roads. I think there's like, some sort of, like, surface level, like, ooh, like fancy people say I'm smart, that's fun, and you can get confidence boost from that. But I do think, like, the most significant confidence has to come internally and from showing up and loving yourself and not waiting for other people telling you that you're worthy, which I think is something that I struggled with for a long, long time, hard to do, yeah, especially when we're like, like in high school, and all those phases where it's everything is so much focused on getting other people to like you and approve you, whether that's the college you're applying for, whether that's the kid you think is cute, whether that's like, friend group that you're in. Like, so much of life feel so determined based on how other people are interpreting you, and that's something that, like sometimes it doesn't ever entirely go away. But I think pivoting how I orient my competence to be more internal rather than external, has been the biggest game changer for me. Yeah,

Michael Leopold:

that sounds like you know, one thing you've done with that is just making that deliberate choice to focus on on your your yourself, your needs, whether that's like through journaling you mentioned, or like having passion projects on the side, it's like making a conscious, deliberate effort to prioritize that stuff sounds like goes a long way,

Jenna Smith:

yeah, and also just being part of your community and showing up for people that like you genuinely love and genuinely Love You Like It doesn't always have to be self motivated, but I think how, like removing that, like external approval aspect of things can be really significant. No,

Michael Leopold:

that makes sense. You mentioned your sister being more the extroverted type, doing the public speaking Tourette to hundreds or 1000s of people. Is that something that you do because I knew you were. A Tourette advocate as well. Have you grown in that space? Or are you now someone who enjoys doing those big public speakings, or kind of, what's your relationship to that now? I

Jenna Smith:

mean, that's something I've always done as well. Like, I was a big debate kid growing up a lot of like, that was something that was always, like, my niche, but I would often feel more comfortable with a script in front of me or memorize, like having a conversation with somebody, I'd be like, was the kid at the birthday party with the book in the corner. Like that was just how I operated from be

Michael Leopold:

more rehearsed when you've got the script or the book and it like you can control it more, I guess, yes,

Jenna Smith:

yeah, I was very I liked things that I could control, to be quite honest. I think that's the space that I've grown in. I think that also comes with the confidence and also, just like, I think de stressing has also helped, like, I feel like I don't put as much weight on every single little interaction, every single little grade, just like showing up to class and participating in class, because I love to learn rather than I need this specific outcome, like, all of those things have really, really impacted it. No,

Michael Leopold:

that that makes sense. Oh, yeah, what, uh, what debate event did you do? Oh, okay, I didn't like the official what's it called the National speech in forensic or Speech and Debate Association? Yeah, I wasn't in

Jenna Smith:

that one, but I did mock trial throughout high school, and I did this thing called National High School Ethics Bowl. I think that's like the official acronym, which was really big at my high school in New Jersey. And it's like a niche activity. And I think of it as, like, very polite debate, like both sides can take the same opinion, and it's more evaluated based on the quality of the questions you ask and the arguments you deliver, rather than like, Oh, interesting winner. Or, yeah, yeah, which I do think, like to this day has really influenced how I think, how I speak, how I show up in the classroom, how I process, like day to day dilemmas. So I think all of those things were very much so influential, both on like, how I like perform in public speaking settings, but also just in terms of how I process information.

Michael Leopold:

No, it's huge. I was a big speech and debater in high swatted, like in Douglas debate and a few speech events. And that was, like, my big thing in high school. I would stay for school every day for it, and, you know, and it was also, like, our, our high school was really big for that. We had over 100 kids in our speech and debate program. It was, like, bigger than our football program on a dedicated coaching staff. It was, it was amazing, and just a great way for that. I think I think I developed a lot of empowerment and confidence. But also your point about, like, even now, how I approach arguments or my thinking and stuff, I think it's really shaped like how my brain works, logically thinking, you know, making a structure, but even like, just getting up and giving a speech is a lot easier. I think, having had some like, training in that, I always do recommend that to people that have an interest in public speaking, or are curiosity so really valuable activity to do some kind of mock trial or un Model UN or debate, I think is is excellent for for young people to get involved in. One thing we haven't spoken about as much is anxiety, and I honestly don't so like, I don't have, like, generalized anxiety disorder. I It's very minor in my life, and I find that it doesn't come up much in my podcast episodes. I would love to have a little more content around that, especially with people that have faced anxiety and kind of grown through that and what their experience has been like, things they've learned. If that's something you can speak to, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Yeah.

Jenna Smith:

I mean, I can very, I don't know the specific information that would be helpful to give on it, but I have generalized anxiety. And then I also, like, I have started experiencing panic attacks pretty severely. I want to say, like, my was that my sophomore year of college into my junior year of college, and they definitely, like, decreased, but like, that's something I definitely navigated. And yeah, it's interesting. It's one of those things. It was kind of funny. I don't know if this is like, a relevance anecdote to share, but I remember I got diagnosed with anxiety, like, when I was in Mississippi, like, I guess a couple years ago, I just had, like, it was very clear to me and the and the people around me definitely that I was experiencing it. I remember, like, I called to tell my mom that they diagnosed me with anxiety. She was like, why? And I told her all the symptoms, and she's like, that's not anxiety. That's just, like life. And then we realized, like, Oh no, she has anxiety too. So it's one of those things of like, I think there's also just, and it can show up in different, like, cultural context and how prevalent conversations around mental health are in your individual communities, but I think it's also relevant to I don't know, I didn't, I don't even know what the full takeaway of that is, but it's interesting to see how those things manifest. And you just might not notice, because it's so normalized, and you're a fan, that's a good point.

Michael Leopold:

Anxiety really is. And a lot of us that are anxious maybe had anxious parents or maybe not, but, but a lot of us did, and yeah. And so you just kind of like accepted and might not even get that might not get diagnosed, or even see it as like, something that that you can actually like, work through and work on and stuff like that, but love that well, any last tips or advice that you have for someone recently diagnosed with Tourette, say, someone who was diagnosed it, you know, in eighth grade. Having a really significant bout of tics. Then they got their diagnosis. What advice would you give them, or what would you tell them?

Jenna Smith:

I think as cliche as it sounds, it really is all gonna be okay. It will be fine. And just remember that there's a whole community of people out there who are experiencing the same thing that you are that love you and show up for you. So just it's, it's gonna be all right. Love

Michael Leopold:

hearing that it is. I echo that as well. Jenna, thank you so much for being on the uptick, and I wish you the best of luck in your final semester at Duke and at Oxford next

Jenna Smith:

thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on Absolutely. Have a good

Michael Leopold:

one. And to our listeners, stay tuned for our next episode. Thank you for listening to the uptick brought to you by The New Jersey Center for Tourette syndrome and Associated Disorders empowering you to stretch the boundaries to live your best life. You

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